What is balance?

[71175]

First of all. Sorry i made topic in wrong section. Move if neccessary.
Now we have main question:What we should understand under balanced RvR in this game? So basically all the balance discussion on the forum is useless without the actual vision of balance by NGD. So... may we have it?

[Psynocide]

Short and sweet? No.

[Seher]

Balance is the best possible fun (gameplay) for everyone. How strong and efficient classes are compared to each other is an important factor there, but comes in second, the most important thing is fun. Since this game is RvR centric, slight imbalances for PvP might be necessary to achieve a better RvR gameplay.
My opinion.

Either way, you need a vision of classes, too. Most are quite clear and don't need further specifying by NGD, just hunters are the big question mark. What are they supposed to be? Not just any vision will do, it needs to be a good one that makes sense. Yes, NGD should provide it (so that I can take it apart :P), pretty much everyone on these forums has already posted their vision of hunters, it's time to decide.

[Phlue4]

Balance is,
when every class can win against each other one in a PvP
.....(without running behind trees, rocks etc),
when every class has a spezific and useful part in RvR,
when every class has the same possibilities for getting rlms / drops of bosses,
when it is fun playing every damn class.

Referred to Regnum Online, this is almost impossible :d:d.

(If you ask me, this most important changes would be: Normal heal + regenerating, Lightning + Ice Wind + Fire ball being dependent on Intelligence; Sotw a hunter-only-spell; hunters able to camouflage with their pets; resistence spells of barbarians should be knight-only somehow.)

Greez :)

[yeah-baby]

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Balance is,
when every class can win against each other one in a PvP
.....(without running behind trees, rocks etc),
when every class has a spezific and useful part in RvR,
when every class has the same possibilities for getting rlms / drops of bosses,
when it is fun playing every damn class.

Referred to Regnum Online, this is almost impossible :d:d.

(If you ask me, this most important changes would be: Normal heal + regenerating, Lightning + Ice Wind + Fire ball being dependent on Intelligence; Sotw a hunter-only-spell; hunters able to camouflage with their pets; resistence spells of barbarians should be knight-only somehow.)

Greez

says it all,but why havnt we got this?

is it not profitable to do so?
is it not possible to achieve due to class restrictions?
is it not a priority to NGD after 4 years?

how can any balance be achieved anyways,now we have beacons,it diminishes the role of players who use cc spells.

[Archonaut]

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says it all,but why havnt we got this?

is it not profitable to do so?
is it not possible to achieve due to class restrictions?
is it not a priority to NGD after 4 years?

how can any balance be achieved anyways,now we have beacons,it diminishes the role of players who use cc spells.

Because it is hardly impossible.. Even Blizzard, a company with 500 employees has a game (WoW of course) which is balanced yes. But totally balanced? Hell no, has there ever been a balanced game? Even Paper, Rocks and Scissors is unbalanced.

[Huntrare]

Hell no, has there ever been a balanced game? Even Paper, Rocks and Scissors is unbalanced.

I know right! Try to catch a Rock with a Paper. Rock is OP! xD

But really, trying to balance things out is very difficult. But if they post some ideas or take some ideas from these forums, won't be such a bad idea.

Mainly I saw was bois who had magnificent ideas, and Enio and some other experienced players, which I forgot who did them(i'm sorry, i forgot who was it :ohill: )

Its impossible to make a balanced game. Also when balanced, in my opinion, all the fun would go. I think there has to be a class which is the underdog, and a class which is popular, BUT they still must have a role in ALL(well almost all) situations.

[Unk0]

Its impossible to make a balanced game.
it's realy easy, one class no spell, it's realy good balance ... but yeah realy borring xD

[71175]

Well i mind perfect balance. But the game which doesn't cause massive frustration can be called balanced imo. Unfortunately, Regnum is far from that :rale:

[Klutu]

Balance is simply fairness to all classes

The games current state is a lot better then a year or 2 ago where the game was just overrun by Hunters with a complete ganking mindset & Warjurs being completely overpowered and useless to his own allies

[Manuka]

Balance is,
when every class can win against each other one in a PvP
.....(without running behind trees, rocks etc),
Absolutely wrong imo, because this should not be the priority for rvr. Only the secondary more duel like hunting activities demand this. Rather the strenghts and weaknesses of all six subclasses(roles) should complement each other, like rock, paper, scissors and "enforce" teamplay for more fort war as regnums prime game focus.
when every class has a spezific and useful part in RvR,true
when every class has the same possibilities for getting rlms / drops of bosses,true
when it is fun playing every damn class.true, but not contrary to #1
In relation to the rvr aspect realm balance is another important coefficent of player experience. As already said, there is no perfect balance in mmos and its a continual process of fine tuning, because new features and interdependances influence balance.

[Kaixo]

Absolutely wrong imo, because this should not be the priority for rvr. Only the secondary more duel like hunting activities demand this. Rather the strenghts and weaknesses of all six subclasses(roles) should complement each other, like rock, paper, scissors and "enforce" teamplay for more fort war as regnums prime game focus.
Priority is completely irrelevant when someone talks about what is balance.
"Rock, paper and scissors balance" would work well if the game was based on instances with defined number of players. But on this game you can have all kind of encounters, so that kind of balance would be like an invitation to try other games.

[Seher]

Even Paper, Rocks and Scissors is unbalanced.

Depends on which balance definition you use. Does balance mean equal chances to win? Then rock, paper, scissors is balanced.

But as I've already written, I think balance is primarily about gameplay and fun. Rock, Paper and Scissors is one of the most "imbalanced" games, then. And again and again people think that games should involve such a system... :cuac:

[Raindance]

It's like asking why the sky is blue. You're just downgrading yourself over and over with each post. I thought your 'first' ban would've done you good. Guess noooot.

[Manuka]

Priority is completely irrelevant when someone talks about what is balance.Its not, because the mode of game points to the alignment of balance. I dont think there is one unique general balance for everything since it always depends on the circumstances of intended play.
"Rock, paper and scissors balance" would work well if the game was based on instances with defined number of players. But on this game you can have all kind of encounters, so that kind of balance would be like an invitation to try other games.You are right that it doesn't fit all combat scenarios of ro, but it still supports war experience better than if there were no need to play as a team. Instances are no option for rvr. Nevertheless i believe it would be the right way to have less perfectly even weighted classes, as it helps against ego solo players. Of cause the drafted shape of interlocking teamwork should not frustrate but still encourage cooperation in large battles.

[Latan]

Even Paper, Rocks and Scissors is unbalanced.

that's why sheldon added lizard and spock

[Vaylos]

My idea of balance is that all classes should have good synergy working as a team. Some skills might need some overlap to achieve that synergy, but that's okay IMO.

But, in 1v1, or small group combat, classes should also be able to hold their own. There should not be any "easy wins" Unless a player specifically sets up to do that. Each class should have the chance of winning a fight without using terrain. Although terrain use is a valid tactic, IMO, it shouldn't be "necessary" for a barb/knight to use it to kill a marks or a hunter, just as a hunter/marks should have the chance to kill or at least control a barb/knight or get away if the barb/knight gets too close. Even if it is a small chance. Right now there is practically -no- chance unless the barb or knight are incompetent.

The range vs. melee dynamic is one that really needs some looking at IMO. There is no middle ground or close call. If the barb catches the archer. There is no fight, only death. If the archer keeps the barb/knight away, there is no fight, only a prolonged and slow death for the melee class. (knights particularly have a problem vs. archers due to no speed/running buff, aside from horn/onslaught from a companion)

This has been discussed in the past, but I think there is too much running around and pre-setup, and not enough actual combat in the game. I think to improve the overall game dynamic, there needs to be a -little- bit of skill overlap between classes. I think this would help promote the group dynamic, add synergy to RvR, and improve survivability of individual classes. I realize the "shared trees" between classes have this overlap, but....I don't think it quite works the way it should, as there really is no "making a comeback" or "middle ground" It is either this way, or that way.


These are my general feelings on what I've observed playing in various scenarios over the course of the game. That doesn't mean I'm right, or have the right opinion, and I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. These are just how I perceive things in a very broad/general sense of the combat dynamic. Range vs. Melee, speed, actual combat, survivability/self-sufficiency, etc. And I think all classes need to be improved somewhat to achieve a greater sense of fun.

[isgandarli]

What is balance? Don't know...
What is love? Answer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmbhYKDKfU)

xD

[VeterKh]

Balance is something that involves a lot of factors.
Balance is a big work. The work for which, in principle, pay the money.

bad work - bad money. bad money - bad balance.

"bad balance sits in each of us,
bad balance leads you into ecstasy ... " (c) Bad Balance

[Kittypretty]

Balance:

Barbarians/Marksman - Regnum Is balanced.
Other Classes - Sucks to be you, choose one of the above.


Seriously though they do need to do balance all at once, even if its a massive overwhelming undertaking I can't say I'd ever want to do, or we'll continue with these nerfs to singular skills that could/should be countered/provided by an ally/enemy otherwise, this is a TEAM based game, I don't expect to have a counter to every class/skill, BUT I do hope an ally DOES, or strengthens a classes' weakness because of his role or skills, so even the worst match ups can benefit each other without one class completely useless or helpless against whatever opponents they are facing.

for example, (and maybe not the best example but..) Knights had Deflecting Barrier and Conjurers had Protection Dome, both considered a tad OP admittedly, but consider a Warlocks' Sultars Terror. Both skills were in their OP state with not much complaints, until both (possible) counters were changed (nerfed, or adjusted, i am not arguing that they didn't need a change, but it affected ST in a bad way, thus ST was nerfed too in turn because of mass complaints from ST chain deaths)

THEN a few months later, ST was nerfed as well, making all 3 spells alot less common/useful in use because they simply weren't as effective or had limited uses in war with the new changes. (Beacons also contribute to less and less CC's, will slow be added next?)

It is like trying to complete a puzzle piece by piece, but the picture keeps changing.

[standistortion]

Seems some folks want PvP balance and some RvR, PvP balance would result in RvR balance but would probably dumb things down to the point where greater numbers always win and I really don't want to play a game with nothing but knarb's, warju's and whatever archers would become.

Seems like there are just to many variables to ever achieve balanced but the problem brakes down easily. There are support and offense classes, I see no reason why balance cant be achieved between offense classes in PvP, then in equal groups (terrain would still sway an advantage), then in 2v2 battles with a single offense and support on each side and finally fine tuned with uneven combinations to ensure no combination has a major advantage (ie. no herds of conj's and barb's).

[Yttrium]

Balance: in any given encounter, the outcome is not easy to predict. When the outcome is easy to predict, the game becomes rote and boring.

[bois]

How do you balance a game which by its design will have a few "right" builds and many "wrong" ones for every single class.
True balance is impossible.

Balancing for fairness that is. Balancing for fun factor could be the way out that keeps players coming back. That is what made NGD a cult classic.
What made this game ? Not the fun factor? It was probably imbalanced as heck but people kept coming back for more. They came back because despite all the problems, I think every player always felt that if they had the right conditions they had a chance. That was the balance. The balance of fun and believing in your self , your class, your experience, allies and ability.

NGD slowly kills all this. They do not understand (maybe they do which is even more scary). Reading data streams will never tell you this story.

I will not even go into the technical conceptual issues and gaffes that NGD introduced into the game that makes things off kilter. We know them and discuss them to death already. I put that aside.

The reality is that with game constructs such as this, there will always be a flavour of the month build or a flavour of the month class. There will always be bugs, exploits and technical problems leading to that thing we call imbalance. No getting around that.

The issue in not balance so much but NGD's concept and forward thinking of balance. Is it a fun factor driven or is it revenue driven. Is the balance between those two ideals in a healthy position? Does NGD understand that the game needs to be fun and unique above all to continue to be successful?

But what about a different approach to balancing. Why not identify areas of weakness and supply temporary class specific boosts to these areas as a test. These are not spells. They are tokens you can either drop, buy etc. They are temporary and can raise the fun factor while modifying balance in a temporary way. It is a fine way to beta test small changes which can then be integrated into the system (via spells etc.) after the data is compiled.
Seems like a better way to test things than tinkering with spells then taking an eternity to get back to tuning them again. Note that such an approach is not nerf friendly but spell enhancing.

[alam_pj99]

Balance is the best possible fun (gameplay) for everyone. How strong and efficient classes are compared to each other is an important factor there, but comes in second, the most important thing is fun. Since this game is RvR centric, slight imbalances for PvP might be necessary to achieve a better RvR gameplay.
My opinion.

Either way, you need a vision of classes, too. Most are quite clear and don't need further specifying by NGD, just hunters are the big question mark. What are they supposed to be? Not just any vision will do, it needs to be a good one that makes sense. Yes, NGD should provide it (so that I can take it apart :P), pretty much everyone on these forums has already posted their vision of hunters, it's time to decide.

+1
I agree with the