New invasion system....

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Tho the changes are mostly good, the current invasions with relics and dragons at gate need some changes badly in my opinion before it goes "live".

Generally the mechanism did not change at all compared to the old invasions when it comes to taking gems of a realm, since while one realm (that invades successfully) is full of joy and such, the other that loses it's gems gets only frustrated... New things with more eye candy.

...The losing side gets frustrated because:

1> There's no, but really zero chance to fight the dragon at gate.

2> You cannot chase gem because of dragon is camping the gate and you get one-hit-killed by it if you try it.

3> Trap doors are too far away from the main gate and you have to ride miles to get out of your OWN realm to try a chase on the gems.

4> You can't do anything with only a few allies (5-10) VS. 20-25+dragon at all, so there should be some kind of mechanism that allows the defending realm to dismiss / disable the enemy dragon. This could be either an immunity of his attacks or a spell that every defender gets and will be able to dismiss the dragon with a ranged spell when such situation occurs (underpopulated vs. overpopulated).

I know that there must be always a winning realm and one that loses, but hell, NO ONE and NONE realm should not feel depressed and frustrated just because they have been invaded.
Just my thoughts.

Feel free to comment, add ideas and changes you think would make the current invasions a better feature :).

[Evangeline]

i agree on the fact that it's harder to chase the realm who steals the gems, but it's not as hard to simply prevent the gems from crossing gate by either chasing gems down, capturing gate or both, leaving alot of open strategies for the defending realm, i sorta enjoy things as they currently are but that's just my opinion, sucks to see my own realm gems run from the gate w/o being able to chase them but we can always prevent them from getting out the gate

I noticed on this last invasion that there were alot of alsius at noble camping it, they would do best preventing the theft of their gems :P but overall was nice fighting, don't give up on the system just yet, you guys invaded and opened portal a bunch of times at start, you can do it again if you don't give up :thumb:

[Monthser]

Kimahri, that's old news. There have been many comments about that subject but until now Alsius found this new system great because they were constantly invading Ignis and Syrtis. Until now, now that it's their turn to get invaded.... start the complaints from their side. Of course the dragon makes insane damage etc etc. We all now that. Havent you read the other threads?

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Mulitrealming is another issue Monthser and doesn't belong to this thread.
In my opinion Alsius could do those invasions because syrtis/ignis was playing among the goats, and we all "now" that :).

I opened this thread to find some kind of solution for the issues I have listed above (or at least let NGD see that those things needs to be changed), issues that EVERY realm that gets invaded have to suffer not only alsius.

[Eyfura]

I actually like the dragon, but imo some changes are needed. Dragon areas can hit the defenders who are behind wall or behind flag is one reason what I dont like - one aggro dragon -> everyone dies. Dragon damage is also imo too high.

Defending outer gate is now impossible, but that is ok. You still can stay inside and defend flag and other gate (now read what I said about dragon areas...)


4> You can't do anything with only a few allies (5-10) VS. 20-25+dragon at all, so there should be some kind of mechanism that allows the defending realm to dismiss / disable the enemy dragon. This could be either an immunity of his attacks or a spell that every defender gets and will be able to dismiss the dragon with a ranged spell when such situation occurs (underpopulated vs. overpopulated).

It is just natural you lose the fight if numbers are 5vs20. With new invasion mechanics, the basic problem did not change.

Something needs to be done for the realm population issue(now read what I said about defending gate). It is hard task to make fight numbers even close to equal, people can just refuse to fight back and log off if they want and don't bother to defend against invasion. I don't know, about 3 weeks alsius had more people than syrtis and could invade. Now it seems your people have disappeared.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

It is just natural you lose the fight if numbers are 5vs20. With new invasion mechanics, the basic problem did not change.

Something needs to be done for the realm population issue(now read what I said about defending gate). It is hard task to make fight numbers even close to equal, people can just refuse to fight back and log off if they want and don't bother to defend against invasion. I don't know, about 3 weeks alsius had more people than syrtis and could invade. Now it seems your people have disappeared.

I agree with you that you will always lose when being outnumbered, but hell, why do we have to face a dragon as well when we have less players in general?

Thats why I suggest it that when such thing occurs the defender realm needs something to disable the dragon at least!

As for our people, I think they have gone back to their original realm / server :gun_bandana:.

[Rising_Cold]

I wonder if we will ever get used to the new invasion system but..

whats really anoying and kills all the fun is that capture gate thingy..
(and yes i was able to put a sad smile on my face when we lost the gems)
the flag is great, capturing too, but..

the saddest part is that the enemy realm can just cap gate
and hold it as long as they want when dragon is gone..
outer gate cant be broken

just saying.. when an invasion is "over", all the hardcore players who take it to seriously log off (frustration >.<)
{over=gems lost}
meaning theres a small group of players who either didnt participate (and thus dont care
at all that the gate is still enemy realm) and the few people who did not log off
it takes a lot of effort to get those people inner realm at the gate.. (if they get there at all)

if this happens at an even worse time of the day, where no1 is online the gate could belong to the enemy realm for hours
imo that part should be looked at.. having gems taken twice during 1 invasion.. just try laughing at it, you'll get a price ;)

(and really, all goats knew that the holiday zerg, were just the multies playing goats...
I dont miss it, man those zergs sucked, no challenge-no fun)

On a sidenote, Im fully aware that todays invasion occured during many players 'lunchtime'
I do not accuse anyone of 'not caring' or 'just logging off'
but it does happen.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Yes Winter, the problem is always the same.
Hardly on someone, that's when the vast majority of the invasions happen and the saddest thing is when you're among of those few players who are trying to do something, anything, to get the gem(s) back / retake a gate that is controlled by tons of enemies, not to mention the dragon... :(

OT: Also, it'd be a nice addition, if you could break those side doors at least that lead into the flag-room, they could have less "HP" as the main gate and the defenders could get in faster via those as well :).

[blood-raven]

I think it could be a good idea to get rid of those gems.
When an army invades a country they don't go for gems, they go for the capital and try to sieze it.
So wouldn't it be a better idea to or put the gems in the capital or make a system where you have to capture something (a flag idk) in the centrum of the capital with.

Another cool thing could be if you where able to capture other cities too.

By doing so you give the defending realm an extra way to defend itself and the invading army a new challenge.

I mean that's what invasions are all about, to conquer and defeat an enemy, not to get gems lol

And yes that dragon needs to be fixed lol

[Evangeline]

I think it could be a good idea to get rid of those gems.
When an armie invades a country they don't go for gems, they go for the capital and try to sieze it.
So wouldn't it be a better idea to or put the gems in the capital or make a system where you have to capture something (a flag idk) in the centrum of the capital with.

Another cool thing could be if you where able to capture other cities too.

By doing so you give the defending realm an extra way to defend itself and the invading army a new challenge.

I mean that's what invsions are all about, to conquer and defeat an enemy, not to get gems lol

And yes that dragon needs to be fixed lol

i like it, but it would call for another expansion :D

[Balint]

In my opinion dragon's attack have to be redesigned. Now he has 15k fireballs and stomps that kill everybody instant. It would be more fun, when this value would be lower, something around 6k. It is still big damage, but when the players are using knight auras and plyons, it's only ~2000. In this case, the players who don't go with their team (=no teamplay) are dying instanly (or becoming a one hit target with 700 hp). The players who are in the team, will have a chance to survive, however their hp is dropping down to half, with that giving to the attacker realm an advantage and a good moment to rush inside.
Additionally dragon could have other powers (that aren't owerpovered but still useful)

Another suggestion from me, add new gate guards to the defending realm's gate if they are underpopulated. The formula have to be very precise, for example divide the attacker player's number with the defender's who logged in the last 3 hours, and use the overall population difference too (players num in 3-4 days) I'm sure NGD can find a good algorithm.
These guards could be small guards or if the population difference is really big, then maybe spawn a guard captain too who have to be killed first. Guard captain should be spawned only in the drastical cases like 5 vs 30.
For more fun new powers could be added to guards, which powers also depends on how outnumbered the defending realm is. I mean if 10 new powers added, the 1. is the weakest and the 10. is the strongest power, and if there is only a slight difference in population, only activate them from 1 to 2, but when there is a big difference activate them from 1 to 8, or something like that :)

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Another suggestion from me, add new gate guards to the defending realm's gate if they are underpopulated. The formula have to be very precise, for example divide the attacker player's number with the defender's who logged in the last 3 hours, and use the overall population difference too (players num in 3-4 days) I'm sure NGD can find a good algorithm.
These guards could be small guards or if the population difference is really big, then maybe spawn a guard captain too who have to be killed first. Guard captain should be spawned only in the drastical cases like 5 vs 30.
For more fun new powers could be added to guards, which powers also depends on how outnumbered the defending realm is. I mean if 10 new powers added, the 1. is the weakest and the 10. is the strongest power, and if there is only a slight difference in population, only activate them from 1 to 2, but when there is a big difference activate them from 1 to 8, or something like that :)

Yes, the damage of the dragon should be lowered, no question about that, as for the guards that shall help the defenders, they can be helpful but have to be placed very well not like before, on the other hand I doubt that they would make any difference if they'd be added since a zerg is always a zerg, nothing can stop it, hence guards won't solve the problem...Not to mention their fantastic AI xD.

Anyways, could be worth the effort and a try so +1 ^^

[blood-raven]

Euh you'll only feed the dragon guardburgers

[Carn]

Goats weren't complaining when they invaded us 206 times a day.

Also, remember that this is not the final release of this update.

[VeterKh]

think about this: you in realm who steal gems... and you fail - couse to chase gem it's too easy. "The losing side gets frustrated ???" it's your words.

Damn ... there are people ready to smear everything new that comes up.
As the new system is not easy to make invasion - it's still hard to do, but it's hard to make the first step. And if you overcome the most difficult first step (get all relics) - later just easier.
The new system provides a better chance to bring begun business to its logical conclusion.

regards.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Goats weren't complaining when they invaded us 206 times a day.

Also, remember that this is not the final release of this update.

I am not complaining at all, as I said I'm just trying to look at the issues as a whole that are there for every three realms when an invasion occurs.

To continue Bálint's idea about new guards....
There could be two chests at the gate, both could function as a merchant.
One of them would sell "Dragon costumes" (>or whatever, insert a name here xD <) that would nullify the enemy's dragon all attacks for let's say 5-10 mins (these costumes could be used just like any party hats and such so you shouldn't have to take your main armors off) , the other would make it possible for the defenders to "purchase" Guard Captains as many times as they desire and "Nails"... This also would give gold a new meaning, we could waste it on these too :D.
Those GC's should be placed right in front of the main gate, inner side of the realm and as for the "nails", they could be used for disabling the side doors for the attackers, hence they couldn't use those but only the main gate!

Also, these chests should be destroyable but that should be really hard, they should have a lot of HP! After one chest was destroyed those who have destroyed it should get some gold reward just like when a lvl4 fort is being taken..

These new chests would only appear once a realm is being badly outnumbered and only then. :thumb: Or?

EDIT: The destroyed chests would "re-spawn" after a certain time has passed.

[Carn]

I am not complaining at all,


I never said you were now did I :o

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Am I a goat Carn? Yes I am. Did I participate in those invasions 206 times? Yes I did.
So I guess you did say I was complaining ^^

Sorry for Off Topic :P

[Monthser]

Mulitrealming is another issue Monthser and doesn't belong to this thread. In my opinion Alsius could do those invasions because syrtis/ignis was playing among the goats, and we all "now" that :).


Who is talking about multirealming? only you, as I see. I didnt say anthing about it. Read again carefully. This is what I said:

"Kimahri, that's old news. There have been many comments about that subject but until now Alsius found this new system great because they were constantly invading Ignis and Syrtis. Until now, now that it's their turn to get invaded.... start the complaints from their side. Of course the dragon makes insane damage etc etc. We all now that. Havent you read the other threads?"

[Carn]

Am I a goat Carn? Yes I am. Did I participate in those invasions 206 times? Yes I did.
So I guess you did say I was complaining ^^

Sorry for Off Topic :P

No no no, I said " Goats weren't complaining when they invaded us 206 times a day "

I never actually said you or any other goat was/is complaining. I just said they weren't. :)

Now, back on topic?

[Rising_Cold]

@monthesser

and we are replying with alsius invaded with 'non-existing' goats, I did not enjoy those invasions
yes we didnt complain, because we knew it would only last till the end of the xmas holiday

the goats that have been playing RO for a while are the ones that enjoy a challenge
those good for nothing zergs were only fun for the people who only like winning


BUT

this thread isnt about multirealming or zergs or who is underpop or not
It happens to all realms, the problem we need a solution for is the lack of fun with the invasions

so please lets try to help eachother out, as it seems that NGD actually monitors the topics nowadays


personally, I see a goldmine in the idea named a few posts back..
capturing towns and stuff

It could give a new thingy to capturing the gems, as i doubt NGD would get rid of wishes
afterall, gems are important, but no npc in the realm guards it?

you could add that the enemy realm has to capture, for example birka, to make sure
the defending forces (NPC's) focus on their town and leave the gem ungaurded
so the enemy realm can pick it up
capturing a town shouldnt be to hard, afterall 3 relics had to be captured
but it would be.. interesting

[Evangeline]

BUT

this thread isnt about multirealming or zergs or who is underpop or not
It happens to all realms, the problem we need a solution for is the lack of fun with the invasions

so please lets try to help eachother out, as it seems that NGD actually monitors the topics nowadays


invasions are pretty fun :p i got no complaints, what part of the invasions aren't fun?

[Kimahri_Ronso]

invasions are pretty fun :p i got no complaints, what part of the invasions aren't fun?


1> There's no, but really zero chance to fight the dragon at gate.

2> You cannot chase gem because of dragon is camping the gate and you get one-hit-killed by it if you try it.

3> Trap doors are too far away from the main gate and you have to ride miles to get out of your OWN realm to try a chase on the gems.

4> You can't do anything with only a few allies (5-10) VS. 20-25+dragon at all, so there should be some kind of mechanism that allows the defending realm to dismiss / disable the enemy dragon. This could be either an immunity of his attacks or a spell that every defender gets and will be able to dismiss the dragon with a ranged spell when such situation occurs (underpopulated vs. overpopulated)

Those parts ^^

A possible solution:


There could be two chests at the gate, both could function as a merchant.
One of them would sell "Dragon costumes" (>or whatever, insert a name here xD <) that would nullify the enemy's dragon all attacks for let's say 5-10 mins (these costumes could be used just like any party hats and such so you shouldn't have to take your main armors off) , the other would make it possible for the defenders to "purchase" Guard Captains as many times as they desire and "Nails"... This also would give gold a new meaning, we could waste it on these too :D.
Those GC's should be placed right in front of the main gate, inner side of the realm and as for the "nails", they could be used for disabling the side doors for the attackers, hence they couldn't use those but only the main gate!

Also, these chests should be destroyable but that should be really hard, they should have a lot of HP! After one chest was destroyed those who have destroyed it should get some gold reward just like when a lvl4 fort is being taken..

These new chests would only appear once a realm is being badly outnumbered and only then. :thumb: Or?

EDIT: The destroyed chests would "re-spawn" after a certain time has passed.

[Groark]

Invasions are the fun part of this game. The new system needs ofc to be improved in some aspects, like maybe the extreme damage of the dragon. We miss the timer and the warnings like before when gates are being broken, etc. The relic system needs also some minor changes, etc.
Just let's wait and see.

[Tamui]

Invasions are the fun part of this game. The new system needs ofc to be improved in some aspects, like maybe the extreme damage of the dragon. We miss the timer and the warnings like before when gates are being broken, etc. The relic system needs also some minor changes, etc.
Just let's wait and see.

Agreed. Somewhere I read, that gates are to act as forts, meaning you can capture them by brute force without the dragon. I hope that's true because it would be boring always summoning dragon to attack.
The dragons are really cool. Of course, a dragon should be powerful, however, there should be a chance of attacking the dragon or blocking it somehow. Massive 23k stomps and 15k 25m area fireballs are really horrible. I would agree in tuning the damage, maybe as it was as a boss only. Perhaps a little higher.
Should the dragons be killed? Maybe. Maybe with some mechanism like the relics.
I also thought if the defending realm could summon their own dragon to defend their realms.
Another thought is, that apart from the stomps and breathing fire, the dragon should give buffs or debuffs...or both.

[roonwick]

the dragon helping is cool, I think we all agree we don't want to get rid of it. At the moment, the dragon appears for a certain time after capturing relics, and the dragon is supposed to help capture the gate. My idea: let's keep this unchanged, and we can even keep the current dragon unchanged. The only change is the dragon timing. it disappears when the gate is captured. It's helped the attackers the attackers get into the enemy realm, the rest is up to them.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Agreed. Somewhere I read, that gates are to act as forts, meaning you can capture them by brute force without the dragon. I hope that's true because it would be boring always summoning dragon to attack.
The dragons are really cool. Of course, a dragon should be powerful, however, there should be a chance of attacking the dragon or blocking it somehow. Massive 23k stomps and 15k 25m area fireballs are really horrible. I would agree in tuning the damage, maybe as it was as a boss only. Perhaps a little higher.
Should the dragons be killed? Maybe. Maybe with some mechanism like the relics.
I also thought if the defending realm could summon their own dragon to defend their realms.
Another thought is, that apart from the stomps and breathing fire, the dragon should give buffs or debuffs...or both.

As far as I know the gate can be attacked anytime without having all relics, so you don't need to summon your dragon to do so, but it's HP regenerates back too fast so you can't break it...

If the defender realm's dragon would also be so ridiculously strong as the attackers one, then I doubt that it would be possible at all to succeed with an invasion, so don't think it's a good idea.

As for the dragon that would buff on a zerg and/or debuff the defenders at the same time you cannot be serious :eek24:.

[Tamui]

As far as I know the gate can be attacked anytime without having all relics, so you don't need to summon your dragon to do so, but it's HP regenerates back too fast so you can't break it...


This. However I'm not sure if it is intended. Once we tried, we had like 30+ Syrtians, almost everyone logged their Barb. We couldn't break it down.
Maybe it's more suitable for Ra?

[bois]

I don't think the design had in mind either the ability to break the gates without summoning a dragon or the ability to kill the dragon.

The system seems to be a method to force a situation where you have exclusively 2 competing realms at a vulnerable gate. It seems that the idea is that the 3rd realm may somehow become spoiler by attacking the assets (relics) of the realm that is trying to invade while they are not home to defend. Optionally the 3rd realm may claim relics from the defending realm's castle. The sheer presence of the dragon (which seems to be a requirement) is to make sure there are only 2 realms competing at any one gate. There will be no easy 2 versus 1. It is possible but improbable. The idea that the dragon can be knocked or frozen leaves the possibility for a small window of action. Still, highly improbable. ( not sure if 'cannot attack' works on it)

The mechanism of gate capture makes sure of this. It is however, flexible enough that players (certain stealth classes in particular) have the ability to pass or pass their team mates through and to the noble if their timing is spot on. They will have little impact on the invasion mechanics though. Their purpose will be one of stealth, not brute force.

By that way, you have a cyclic method. If you notice, you are locked into going after a particular realm once you capture a relic. You are forced to get all three from one opposing realm and you have to summon the dragon. You have no choice in the matter once you place the first relic. You can't mix and match. So, the 3rd realm has no choice but to go after another relic from a realm that has not lost any of their relics. Optionally, they can target a castle that contains the relics they need.
The only reason you might go for a relic that another realm has similar one is if you want to stop or delay the other realm invading or some other tactic.

In a restrictive way this is a new form of balance which I am still analysing. It looks pretty good though. It's much better than the previous version for sure. I do accept that it lacks flexibility. In this case too much flexibility may break the balance NGD is trying to achieve.

Now the issue of players getting killed inside the "safe zone" seems to be that if a single player is in the perimeter between the inside and outside (the gate itself)and gets hit ,the effect gets transmitted to players inside. I am not quite sure if this is really so but it should be tested to make sure this is not actually the case. In every case where is saw this transmission, a vulnerable player was standing in this perimiter zone. I have only seen 3 cases so my logic is quite shaky on this.

The damage of the dragon will probably have to stay (maybe reduced marginally) if the mechanism I think NGD wants will have to remain intact. That is, a massive deterrent to a 3rd realm intervening.

The timers on the taking of relic.

For me I am not quite sure what the time is to release. Some say 30 minutes. I understand why NGD removed the timer bar. It increases urgency and reduces the stop, start, stop, wait type action that timers cause. Based on reports of being able to take relics ' before time' I wonder if there is really a fixed timer or a randomised one based on certain environmental conditions as a trigger. No countdown bar suggests to me that a randomised timer should be the way to go but within certain limits. For example , no less than 25 mins but random between 25 to 30 mins.

Horsing with relic.

I understand (via Wyatt's post anyway) that this is allowed. The question is, should it be allowed ? The other question is can it be blocked via the codes they have. A relic carrier can do and cast everything including a horse (which is a cast). A gem carrier cannot cast anything. This leads me to wonder if it is an all or nothing approach here.
In my view, from an excitement and fun point of view, players running rather than horsing seems to be the most balanced, thrilling, exciting and fair way to go about things for all sides. A horsed player will not be caught easily. Potentially a non horsed player may be even harder to stop but, all the tools available to players come into play. This is what should be aimed for. Utilization of all skills including but not limited to movement speed to get a relic home.

If I got some of the mechanics wrong please don't hesitate to inform me. I am still working it all out and mistakes will be made.

Regards

[C.A.D]

Sorry if it's already been said.
Imo I think there should be 2 dragons helping out e.g. When Syrtis Invade Ignis, Vesper is outside helping them. (Makes it almost impossible for Ignis to get back the gems) But instead have Tenax inside the realm (Inner Great Wall). This way it's a challenge for both realms and more interesting to see how the enemy would get the gems outside (More than half will die by the inner realm dragon) But once they are outside the tides change again.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

Sorry if it's already been said.
Imo I think there should be 2 dragons helping out e.g. When Syrtis Invade Ignis, Vesper is outside helping them. (Makes it almost impossible for Ignis to get back the gems) But instead have Tenax inside the realm (Inner Great Wall). This way it's a challenge for both realms and more interesting to see how the enemy would get the gems outside (More than half will die by the inner realm dragon) But once they are outside the tides change again.

And where should be the "defender" dragon placed at? "Inner gate wall" wouldn't make much sense since once the attackers took the gate they can take the "side doors" to avoid the dragon completely at gate....
On the other hand why would the defenders get a dragon too to aid them in the fight? They didn't "do" anything to deserve it, they didn't collect relics at all etc. ....
Third, I assume both dragons would have the same strength, so it would be quite impossible to succeed with an invasion regardless the zerg you own....
Don't like the two dragons idea at all :P

No, I'd like to lighten the defenders burden by disabling the attackers dragon somehow, once they are badly outnumbered there should be a way to either dismiss it or nullify it's damage for a certain period of time and at the same time the defenders should get some kind of help from NPCs such as "new purchasable Guard Captains" that help to defend the gate's inner side... Already had a suggestion about it in this thread, hope NGD has read it and will consider to implement it :thumb:.

[Slartibartfast]

the dragon helping is cool, I think we all agree we don't want to get rid of it. At the moment, the dragon appears for a certain time after capturing relics, and the dragon is supposed to help capture the gate. My idea: let's keep this unchanged, and we can even keep the current dragon unchanged. The only change is the dragon timing. it disappears when the gate is captured. It's helped the attackers the attackers get into the enemy realm, the rest is up to them.

Bad idea since attacking realm will only break the gate without actually capturing it, keeping the dragon for whole hour.

[71175]

Bad idea since attacking realm will only break the gate without actually capturing it, keeping the dragon for whole hour.


Camp the inner side of gate :idea:

[VeterKh]

if on RA server Realm try to invade around 1 hour and Dragon need to be at gate whole 1 hour? IDK ... we can't have Invasion System only for low population server like Horus... damn... Haven.

[Kimahri_Ronso]

We can't yes, but what's now is for high populated servers designed such as RA, hence it ruins smaller servers completely where there are population issues...^^

We'd need invasions designed reversed, what is good for smaller servers pretty sure will work on servers that have higher populations as well :).

[kmdk]

I've seen many threads about dragone is bad or is good.

At begin of update syrtis was that complaint about dragon and now alsius that complaint about dragon.

There are two perspective of gameplay:

1.)Realm that invade;
2.)Realm that get invaded.

1.)Realm that invade.

a.)Invading as weack realm

-if the realm is weack still have no chances if dragon does no dmg inside gate.
Playng in alsius this week saw how over 40 syrtis camped gates and no alsius was able to pass tru gates ,the only think that dragon did it was to kill syrtis that tryed to get out from gates ,but kinda pointless,becuase not usefull at all.

b.)Invading as powerful realm

Dragon does nothing ,also only stoping a realm that defended gates to get killed if they get out from gates.But powerfull realm was able anyway to kill all defender inside with nop issue.

2.) Realm that get invaded.

a.) Getting invaded as weak realm.
Dragon not affects too much ,because noone put you to get out from realm,the idea is to defend gems and noble .you can chase all enemys around ,the real fight is inside realm anyway.

b.) Getting invaded as powerful realm .
The only think anyway is that you can keep gates and kill any invaders with easy inside realm.Dragon stops you only from chasing invaders ,will not heart you in any way if you don't get out from realm.


My conclusions are:
-Complaining about dragon have no foundation.The real power is still in number of players ,dragon does not much.


Suggestion:

-Dragon is nice idea ,but wee need much more dynamic of this feature,if you make him to fly around enemy realm weack realm will be even weaker ,and powerful realm will have even more power .But will be more usefull for weak realm as it's now.Now is a static NPC that cas dmg in a place where in fact is nut much fight , enemies are behind gates.

-Make dragon to fly around gates and nearest city from gates
-Make dragon to attack players with fireballs(area 6 /warlocks style) with around 1500 or 2000 dmg.
-First atatck point to be gates after they are distroyed to begin this patrol in random directions between gates and nearest city

In a word make dragon dynamic and not static.

Now players will say that will be OP.
Nope this will not be OP because anyway after gates a weak realm will get killed by enemy zerg ,and for weak realm will give a hand to pass the barrier of gates ,that it's get a stuck of.

[erttzzadfk]

If you remember the first invasions (no gems shown on map, no multirealmaccs, no wm-stuff, no dragons..) the new invasion system simply sucks.
Feels like the game "Ludo" (german: Mensch-ärger-Dich-nicht) with cannons, light swords, traps and other stuff noone ever needed to have some fun.
Sorry, but this is my opinion.

(Hope deathmatch will work soon to have something to do instead althoug it's mark- & barb-playground).

[ieti]

For new invasion system relics and the capturable gate was nice addition and bringed fun. The nonsense that bring all in the bad side is dragon and horse relic carriers.

On last alsius invasion i got 21k damage from the dragon, on my barb. Well this is insane. Dragon is pretty, fly animation is kelw, but please not so absurd damage. As others sayed make it fly make it move, BUT lower the damage to some reasonable boundaries. You can lower or completely remove damage, but add some aura or CC area from him - area stun, slow, bonus to damage or something. If it flies around make him cast something without damage(or a small DoT), so it will be not so OP.

Just lower damage, so attackers are not practically untouchable outside and we have a chance to fight back.

Relics bring a nice tactical side to the forts and game. Bad things - there is not timer. Waits are too big. Horses make it too easy and spoil all fun of having a ton of open fights to carry relic home.

Capturable gate. I like the idea to have outpost there with trap doors and stuff. Well there is a downside - if you break doors, but do not capture defenders are practically in very bad situation. Dunno how this can be solved. Maybe this will be no problem if dragon is fixed/adjusted.

[Awrath]

For new invasion system relics and the capturable gate was nice addition and bringed fun. The nonsense that bring all in the bad side is dragon and horse relic carriers.

On last alsius invasion i got 21k damage from the dragon, on my barb. Well this is insane. Dragon is pretty, fly animation is kelw, but please not so absurd damage. As others sayed make it fly make it move, BUT lower the damage to some reasonable boundaries. You can lower or completely remove damage, but add some aura or CC area from him - area stun, slow, bonus to damage or something. If it flies around make him cast something without damage(or a small DoT), so it will be not so OP.

Just lower damage, so attackers are not practically untouchable outside and we have a chance to fight back.

Relics bring a nice tactical side to the forts and game. Bad things - there is not timer. Waits are too big. Horses make it too easy and spoil all fun of having a ton of open fights to carry relic home.

Capturable gate. I like the idea to have outpost there with trap doors and stuff. Well there is a downside - if you break doors, but do not capture defenders are practically in very bad situation. Dunno how this can be solved. Maybe this will be no problem if dragon is fixed/adjusted.

I agree. The idea is nice, but the implementation is poor. This is really why NGD need to consider adjustable systems depending on overall server population, as many have said in the past, what works on Ra doesn't necessarily work on Haven.

It would be much better if relic carriers were unable to mount, certainly the fights would be more fun. The current time it takes before a relic is released, 30 minutes, is far too high. How is an underpopulated realm going to hold a fort for 30 minutes, even if it is level 4, if you are outnumbered, you don't stand a chance. The only hope you have is to invade at a time when most people are offline. This is an issue of population and time zone balance. All the 30 minute wait does is encourage farming at a fort, which is frustrating for most of those being farmed, and frustrating for those who want a decent balanced battle.

The dragon damage is far too high, this needs to be reduced so that some tactics can be used at the gate such as the use of areas, I really miss those days of popping out, spamming an area and popping back in. Synchronised areas vs a larger group of invaders is a tactic which can no longer be used at the gate. Defending gate used to be possible, now it really borders on impossible with the dragon looming close. At this rate you may as well remove the first gate as there is little point in defending it.

Furthermore, I feel there should be a reward system for successfully defending your realm from an invasion. Perhaps the definition of a "successful defence" could be preventing the loss of both gems. This way, there is both risk and reward in invading or being invaded. Not sure what the reward can be, more creative minds than my own can come up with something I am sure!

While I understand the vision behind these new mechanics, I think some adjustments are needed. Yes, it's easier for underpopulated realms to invade in comparison to the old system, at the same time, it's also a hell of a lot easier for overpopulated realms to invade. As it stands, invasions on Haven remains a game of numbers.

[kmdk]

I agree. The idea is nice, but the implementation is poor. This is really why NGD need to consider adjustable systems depending on overall server population, as many have said in the past, what works on Ra doesn't necessarily work on Haven.


+1 +2 +3


The dragon damage is far too high,


Yes ,agree but....


this needs to be reduced so that some tactics can be used at the gate such as the use of areas, I really miss those days of popping out, spamming an area and popping back in. Synchronised areas vs a larger group of invaders is a tactic which can no longer be used at the gate. Defending gate used to be possible, now it really borders on impossible with the dragon looming close. At this rate you may as well remove the first gate as there is little point in defending it.

Dissagree ....from when offensive beacons gone ..... sync areas as sultar(used as mass knock) or frozen storm has hight impact on any zerg to nullify or stop hoard of barbs.


While I understand the vision behind these new mechanics, I think some adjustments are needed. Yes, it's easier for underpopulated realms to invade in comparison to the old system, at the same time, it's also a hell of a lot easier for overpopulated realms to invade. As it stands, invasions on Haven remains a game of numbers.

Thats the main proposal from what i think people must think different ,not all as victims ,thinks large from invaded or as realm that invade.

[bois]

For sure it is better. Well, Let me rephrase that. The foundation from which to build something great is there. Right now I rate it as good.
I am not too concerned about the dragon damage. I mentioned why in my last post. Essentially it is to force a 2 realm battle at the gate perimeter. Lowering the damage outright allows the 3rd realm to intervene, possibly making the negative feedback loop too much for the defenders.

With that said, I have seen some unsavoury things like the gem carriers standing under the dragon in attempt to "farm" the defenders with gem as bait. It is not illegal but it does expose a weakness in the system whereby a defending realm is at a ridiculous disadvantage at the outside of the gate from an impossible negative feedback loop. The fact that they can exit through gates which are far (but can't be placed closer) reduces the chances of flashpoints in the warzone and thus less of a chance to recover. The offensive teleport if well used (not often) could be an important mechanism to use.

To this end , I think that a new mechanism should be considered. There are many options. I throw out a few. Feel free to discuss (I am suggesting only one be used )

1. The dragon remaining time gets reduced by 50% once the defending realm has no home gems on their pedestals. Gate vulnerability timer does not change. This means that the longer the invaders take, the less advantage they gain while the invaded gradually gain advantage the longer they hold out. Doing both Noble and gems will not be as easy to do in one round as before with static dragon countdown.

2. If you have no gems (i.e devastated) you can be made vulnerable by the normal way but the dragon does not come to the gate. In this case , the negative feedback loop is not important as the only target is the noble. In this case, defending it should give some benefit. A simple (DFD)XP boost to every enemy you kill in your realm or 5 WM points per unique kill (for lvl 60) should be sufficient. The disincentive of getting invaded will be counterbalanced by the strong incentive to clean out the invaders. Negative feedback loop averted.

3. Once the gems or in the case of one already stolen, the remaining gem breaks free of the gate, the dragon leaves in 2 minutes. Optionally, it loses its magical powers and becomes similar in damage to the ones inner realm.

4.Giving the class with the defensive teleport a third location option during invasions could be something to think about .

Horsing with relic. I said my piece on that already. However, taking into account that NGD took more than a year to admit the gaffes in Warmasters ( I am surprised they did at all), this may take a year of 'observation' to work out that it isn't the best of ideas. I suppose that the thinking is that while on horse you have speed but no access to other spells.
Simply making them like gem carriers solves all the issues and promotes team play. I do assume, teamwork is what they are aiming for.

All in all, it is a good foundation. A few tweaks here and there and the issues could be resolved with a minimum of fuss. The ideas presented may not be my greatest ones but, at least it is somewhere to start.

As for the timer on the dragon summoning table, that one needs a closer look. I think a timer there is fine but its modulation should be carefully examined.

[ieti]

+10000000000000000 to what bois said!

If they implement what you writen invasions will be way way more fun. Please NGD take this thread into accoount and especially bois's reply.

I agree it gets better. Go go NGD. :thumb:

[Kimahri_Ronso]

1. The dragon remaining time gets reduced by 50% once the defending realm has no home gems on their pedestals. Gate vulnerability timer does not change. This means that the longer the invaders take, the less advantage they gain while the invaded gradually gain advantage the longer they hold out. Doing both Noble and gems will not be as easy to do in one round as before with static dragon countdown.

2. If you have no gems (i.e devastated) you can be made vulnerable by the normal way but the dragon does not come to the gate. In this case , the negative feedback loop is not important as the only target is the noble. In this case, defending it should give some benefit. A simple (DFD)XP boost to every enemy you kill in your realm or 5 WM points per unique kill (for lvl 60) should be sufficient. The disincentive of getting invaded will be counterbalanced by the strong incentive to clean out the invaders. Negative feedback loop averted.

3. Once the gems or in the case of one already stolen, the remaining gem breaks free of the gate, the dragon leaves in 2 minutes. Optionally, it loses its magical powers and becomes similar in damage to the ones inner realm.

4.Giving the class with the defensive teleport a third location option during invasions could be something to think about .
[U]

Quite nice ideas Bois ^^

But:
1; Regardless of the time the dragon will spend at the gate it won't change things at all...
It will be still there, one-hit-kill everyone, blocks the gate completely so players will have to use the far-placed trap doors making it impossible to do a regrouped chase on the gem.

On the other hand we'd need something to help underpopulated realms that are being invaded so they won't feel so depressed and frustrated after the event.
I'd like to see Guard Captain(s) at inner side of the gate, an option to disable side doors at gate for the attackers and an option to disable the dragon some way... Your second thought sounds pretty nice and it could be also used when number imbalances occur at an invasion! :thumb:
Also, bring those trap doors closer for the defending realm please so they can leave their realm faster!

The problem with the 3rd idea would be that although the dragon has lost "it's magical power" and became a boss mob, it still can do way too much damage IMHO, not to mention, that as far as I noticed it it does only critical hits lol xD. Leaving in two minutes sounds better :).

+1 to your 4th thought ^^

All in all I like your way of thinking, I wish NGD could think with your head xD.

[Orimae]

Arty, once again, words of wisdom :)


Something does need to change... before, defending realm got Guards Captains , the less Defenders, the more guards on gate.. now its reversed and attackers have the advantage.

Maybe bring back this feature, but slightly modified... maybe , make them spawn on the inner realm side of the gate... so invaders have dragon on their side, defenders have at least one GC on theirs, i know there are guards with the flag, but they are no match for a dragon and 30+ invaders when you have 7 people on...also, the GC will stay, even if the enemy capture the gate.

My only worry.. would open it to abuse by hunters, stalkering past the GC´s into the gate... skill reveal everyone XD

One more thing... can we please have the gems update instantly on the maps again? like before? Seems unfair relics are instantly updated on the maps, but gems still every 10 seconds or something?