Serious out-of-balance with hunters

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Solarus

The following skills are available for use to keep a hunter from using any defensive (or offensive) spells:

Conjurer:
- Silence
- Tremor

Silence: can't be cast while Confused.
Tremor: can't be cast while Confused.
While playing a conjurer, Confuse was almost always the first spell cast on me by hunters. Once confused, a support conjurer will be dead long before the 35 to 40 second Confuse wears off.
If by some miracle the conjurer resists Confuse, and manages to start casting Tremor or Silence, she will probably not finish casting those slow spells before she is hit with Ambush or the hunter moves behind her, and the spell is wasted.

Originally Posted by Solarus

Warlock:
- Meteor
- MOD

Meteor: Most likely will be evaded by a hunter. If it isn't evaded, the hunter can utilize their superior speed to either move out of range of the warlock, or move behind him, canceling his slow spells.
MoD: This spell is really nice, however it costs over 500 mana at level 1, and is very slow to cast. Chances are, a warlock will never finish the spell before he is hit with Ambush, wasting the spell. If the warlock is lucky enough to finish casting it, the graphical effects are obvious that it is on, and it's not difficult for a speedy hunter to stay out of range of this spell.

Originally Posted by Solarus

I'm actually quite happy that this thread has caused so much dialogue within the community.

I agree, Solarus. I'm glad you initiated this thread, and I appreciate your ideas and thoughts on balance. I respect your point of view (and Wudy's too), because you seem interested in the overall balance of the game, while many other hunters just say "stop whining" or "end of discussion" because they want to continue with their nearly invincible condition.

I have stated my point of view several times, so I won't go into details, but to me it seems that hunters now face almost no risk of getting killed. They can attack a party of 4 or 5, kill the weakest quickly, and escape with hardly a scratch. Most spells are evaded, they can very quickly get out of range of attacks with just their base speed, and can fall back on SoW and Camo if they start to take some damage. About the only time I see a hunter die is if the group contains hunters as well, and/or multiple barbarians who can Onslaught each other alternately to catch the hunter quickly. I think your suggestion would do much to balance things out again. Hunters would still be deadly, but would face at least some risk when attacking a group of enemies.

[CumeriTarenes]

Originally Posted by octopus

Silence: can't be cast while Confused.
Tremor: can't be cast while Confused.
While playing a conjurer, Confuse was almost always the first spell cast on me by hunters. Once confused, a support conjurer will be dead long before the 35 to 40 second Confuse wears off.
If by some miracle the conjurer resists Confuse, and manages to start casting Tremor or Silence, she will probably not finish casting those slow spells before she is hit with Ambush or the hunter moves behind her, and the spell is wasted.

support conjus are dead meat anyway when they face any class without allies. (except they face an enemy support conju )

And to confuse, you have a fair chance to cast tremor or silence before the hunter casts confuse on you. It is clear that the player which gets the first shoot has a big advantage. Since hunters are made for hunting they do the first shoot most of the time. The new camo even allows them to stand right behind you and you won't notice. These facts are ppl pissing off, they simply are frutrated because they died, without a realy fair chance to win.
And...if they manage to almost win the fight the hunter has a high chance (highest chance of all classes) to escape. This realy pisses many ppl off. They can hardly kill a hunterbut they are most often killed by them. But...this is how the hunter class is designed. You won't change anything with just some spell changes. Either you accept the hunter as it is or you have to change the whole class totally. What do you want a hunter to be? A marksman with crippled damage spells, a pet and tracking skills? Would be no fun to play a hunter then I guess.
Only change that is needed for hunter class is to cancel casting camo when under attack. It would prevent hunters from escaping every fight the hunter doesn't want to fight. As already mmentioned in another thread a hunter cannot cast sotw and camo in the middle of the fight because he lacks mana. But a hunter can use sotw and camo combination when he simply wants to avoid to fight. No other class can do. When the hunter does not want to fight he can track and he can run, since he is fastet class in game.

Originally Posted by octopus

I agree, Solarus. I'm glad you initiated this thread, and I appreciate your ideas and thoughts on balance. I respect your point of view (and Wudy's too), because you seem interested in the overall balance of the game, while many other hunters just say "stop whining" or "end of discussion" because they want to continue with their nearly invincible condition.

I agree too. Just telling stop whining will not solve anything. But only whining will sove nothing too.

[DemonMonger]

Originally Posted by octopus

Silence: can't be cast while Confused.
Tremor: can't be cast while Confused.
While playing a conjurer, Confuse was almost always the first spell cast on me by hunters. Once confused, a support conjurer will be dead long before the 35 to 40 second Confuse wears off.
If by some miracle the conjurer resists Confuse, and manages to start casting Tremor or Silence, she will probably not finish casting those slow spells before she is hit with Ambush or the hunter moves behind her, and the spell is wasted.



Meteor: Most likely will be evaded by a hunter. If it isn't evaded, the hunter can utilize their superior speed to either move out of range of the warlock, or move behind him, canceling his slow spells.
MoD: This spell is really nice, however it costs over 500 mana at level 1, and is very slow to cast. Chances are, a warlock will never finish the spell before he is hit with Ambush, wasting the spell. If the warlock is lucky enough to finish casting it, the graphical effects are obvious that it is on, and it's not difficult for a speedy hunter to stay out of range of this spell.



I agree, Solarus. I'm glad you initiated this thread, and I appreciate your ideas and thoughts on balance. I respect your point of view (and Wudy's too), because you seem interested in the overall balance of the game, while many other hunters just say "stop whining" or "end of discussion" because they want to continue with their nearly invincible condition.

I have stated my point of view several times, so I won't go into details, but to me it seems that hunters now face almost no risk of getting killed. They can attack a party of 4 or 5, kill the weakest quickly, and escape with hardly a scratch. Most spells are evaded, they can very quickly get out of range of attacks with just their base speed, and can fall back on SoW and Camo if they start to take some damage. About the only time I see a hunter die is if the group contains hunters as well, and/or multiple barbarians who can Onslaught each other alternately to catch the hunter quickly. I think your suggestion would do much to balance things out again. Hunters would still be deadly, but would face at least some risk when attacking a group of enemies.

its only a matter of lvl + high skill vs low lvl + no skill
the same thing you are talking about happened at ignis save with a (syritis
barbarian)
i the hunter wouldnt catch him... he ran and killed everyone... im sure ignis remembers these days of horror....

you complain about hunter running behind you....
there are several ways to solve this..
ILL HELP YOU THINK SINCE YOU ARE slow....
Mind push.... or slow ... solved.... mind push can be cast every 8 seconds...

you say meteor doesn hit the hunter to stop camo...
dude... you dont even need meteor anymore... change to a fast speed staff and just use basic shots... they will get through ....

I dont have problems with my warlock vs 1 2 or even 3 hunters....

again think.... you can drain life of pet when you get low.. and re barrier...
master of doom you COMPLAIN THAT ITS 500 MANA!!!! omg thats sad man... you can sap life to gain more mana.. or sap nearby enemies / monsters for mana... if you dont have the know how and ability to use your skills and adapt... then no matter what you are always going to suck....
all you have to do.. is wait for the hunter to cast ambush .. after he wasted it.. then cast master of doom.. I KNOW YOU CAN THINK TO DO THIS!!!... now i told you ... so you are welcome...

If you dont like spell elude... why dont you use staff mastery? ... it owns all archers marksman/hunter it owns knights/barbs... its just not great vs other warlocks... you must choose what you want to be good at killing... you cant dominate everyone with a single setup.... Complain again.. I suggest you grow and develop yourself.. or fall back into the line of rejects...

I am not saying don't change things because i want to keep my so called "god like powers"... Just wait until your class gets Dispell... its fast casting... you can spam it on the hunter .. all you need is 1 to hit... then the hunter loses all his defences... you can follow with vampire drain soulkeeper + barrier... drain mana.. and rape him.... stop crying... Warlocks and conjurers have way more power and abilities than a hunter...
The only dowside of warlock is that its slow at running... but guess what.. you can buy a horse! <OMG A HORSE!>

listen.. warlock vs hunter....

barrier first
vampire drain on pet as soon as you lose 400 life...
when the hunter comes in close to fist you dont panic... just recast barrier or master of doom
crystal blast on him and his pet as fist wears off....
by now you may have lost 1000 life.. so use soul keeper on pet... (its dead)
re barrier... hunter may try to camo....
(if the hunter stands still)
change to a fast cast staff <you should always use these in combat anyways>
just face him and basic shot it will pass through son of wind and cancel camo....

IF YOU HAD STAFF MASTERY SKILLS THE FIGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN WON BY THE WARLOCK IN 15 seconds.... and you have less to worry about with hunter running and camoing...
staff mastery 19
mental 19
necro 19
mana control 19 (second personal favorite)

try it... owns all

if you dont like this... try
element 19.... FIREBALL , MAGMA BLAST(or iceblast), LIGHTNING
mental 19 ... IVY AND MINDPUSH HERE!!!
necro 19 ... SADISTIC SERVANTS, SOUL KEEPER, VAMPIRE DRAIN
mana control 19 BARRIER, MANA BURN, and so on... (my personal favorite)

look at this as well... http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/sh...096#post323096

[CumeriTarenes]

I don't know much about warlocks, so I cannot say much about your suggestion how a warlock can kill a hunter, but it seems pretty logical how you described it
What I almost never see happen is to drain mana and health from the pet...most warlock just rely on damage spells and cast them all on the hunter until he will die...or the warlock. Many warlocks don't care about own defence, and then they are saying archers defence is too powerful, because archers care about it. But that's another topic.


One thing I cannot go along with is this:

Originally Posted by DemonMonger

just face him and basic shot it will pass through son of wind and cancel camo....

camo casting time is 4,5 sec, in this time you cannot make more than 4 hits on the hunter. sotw has an evade chance of 98% (this is how it is said very often, I don't know realy about it...but it is a realy high evasion chance). You need to have very much luck if you want to get a normal hit on a hunter under sotw. For this I already suggested to cancel camo when beeing attacked. That would realy make sence in my opinion.

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by CumeriTarenes

camo casting time is 4,5 sec, in this time you cannot make more than 4 hits on the hunter. sotw has an evade chance of 98% (this is how it is said very often, I don't know realy about it...but it is a realy high evasion chance). You need to have very much luck if you want to get a normal hit on a hunter under sotw. For this I already suggested to cancel camo when beeing attacked. That would realy make sence in my opinion.

SoW increases base evasion by 80%. It can stack with cat reflexes from 85% up to 95% (base evasion, not evasion probabilities). It can also be casted dodge to increase 30%, up to 125% using some theories or creating 2 evade layers (one with 30% evasion probability and the other using your base evasion + evasion boosts) as stated by others.

Fast attack weapons can land at least 3 to 5 hits during casting process if I recall, mages and archers using SB can use speed attack boost by pre-buffing (archers face a hit chance penalty but almost all above 40 are, or should be, using a xym bow that denies that penalty). If the hunter is running it's because there are more then he can handle, switch to fast and do normal hits, it will cancel camu if there are at least 2 players hitting and if you are alone you still have some probabilities to pierce SoW... remember also that SoW has "bad days"...

Finally the whining is switching to game mechanism and tactics discussion. As I stated before, I think we should rather think about it then on balancing the hunters (or other classes).

Now shut up DM (jocking), at this rate the goats will turn even harder to get killed (just go pawned... why do they always hit me first?... cuz I'm not "normal" perhaps?!... gah, back to grinding ).

[CumeriTarenes]

Originally Posted by Signatus

SoW increases base evasion by 80%. It can stack with cat reflexes from 85% up to 95% (base evasion, not evasion probabilities). It can also be casted dodge to increase 30%, up to 125% using some theories or creating 2 evade layers (one with 30% evasion probability and the other using your base evasion + evasion boosts) as stated by others.

dodge is only 25% evasion chance (you maybe thought about precise block which gives 30% blocking chance) but for the rest I go with you

Originally Posted by Signatus

remember also that SoW has "bad days"...

yeah, once I was ambushed while beeing under sotw...and I thought wtf

Originally Posted by Signatus

Finally the whining is switching to game mechanism and tactics discussion. As I stated before, I think we should rather think about it then on balancing the hunters (or other classes).

Yep, I already said it in a few other posts, we should rather discuss about how to use our skills instead of how to convince NGD to change some skills for us. Never the less I think hunters got a very bit more power with the new update with the changings in camo. Even with the next update (tracking under camo) they will get a bit more power again
Of course I don't know what NGD is planning to implement to other classes in the future, like dispel and other things, but for the moment I think hunters are quite balanced, actually they were it even more before the latest change of camo. For this I realy think that camo should not be allowed to cast while under attack. When the hunter manages to runs away to cast camo, or he hides behind a stone, a tree or a mob to cast camo I have no problem with, this is good tactics, but when the hunter sees he won't win a fight before the fight started he will use sotw and camo to get away. And he will get away in most cases. Even without camo the hunter has a very big chance to get away because of speed, sotw, dodge, spell elude and low profile. But using sotw and camo makes the chance to get away too big. And all other people are pissed because they cannot catch a hunter and will just whine to nerf them. Cancel camo when beeing under attack is a fair compromise which won't imbalance anything I think. But only my opinion which comes from my limited mind. I am glad some people like you and DM enlighten me from time to time.

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by CumeriTarenes

dodge is only 25% evasion chance (you maybe thought about precise block which gives 30% blocking chance) but for the rest I go with you

Of course... sorry, I'm getting tired and I've been playing a knight almost all night so I switched the "lucky" spells.

Originally Posted by CumeriTarenes

Never the less I think hunters got a very bit more power with the new update with the changings in camo. Even with the next update (tracking under camo) they will get a bit more power again

Well, to be honest I preferred the older one, it was much more "offensive" (meaning, it would suffice either a spear or hammer area, or mind push to stop you in the place while running, so who couldn't catch an invisible hunter?... personally I would just rep the area from a distance, killed more then one that way) then it is now, imho, I had it timed to go invisible on a warriors nose and there wasn't better to cancel opponents targeting under fire, now you don't even have to use mana to cancel it!

About tracking under camu... it isn't that good imo, if you need to use a high lvl track spell you loose much mana so it won't be mana wise to do it often. And all seasoned hunters know places where its usage is pointless (how many places you know where item farming is a constant? and where lvls 37-42 grind? and 42-46?.. etc.).

The most penalized by it will be, and don't laugh it's an opinion, hunters! Because if you are hunting in a group and track invisible you won't have your friends synergy bond and they won't see you immediately changing direction (so basically, you wont use it), and if you are hunting a hunter and you know where he is and you know he suspects where you are (but you also know how to use the environment), you can't wait his tracking (because you know when a hunter need one) for having the 1st shot advantage... so it will be like "who casted camu 1st is doomed" and "who needed more tracks is doomed" when concerning to the outcome (relating to 1st shot advantage and mana saving).

Shooting invisible however... that would be a funny thing to whine about!

[CumeriTarenes]

Originally Posted by Signatus

Well, to be honest I preferred the older one, it was much more "offensive" (meaning, it would suffice either a spear or hammer area, or mind push to stop you in the place while running, so who couldn't catch an invisible hunter?... personally I would just rep the area from a distance, killed more then one that way) then it is now, imho, I had it timed to go invisible on a warriors nose and there wasn't better to cancel opponents targeting under fire, now you don't even have to use mana to cancel it!

About tracking under camu... it isn't that good imo, if you need to use a high lvl track spell you loose much mana so it won't be mana wise to do it often. And all seasoned hunters know places where its usage is pointless (how many places you know where item farming is a constant? and where lvls 37-42 grind? and 42-46?.. etc.).

The most penalized by it will be, and don't laugh it's an opinion, hunters! Because if you are hunting in a group and track invisible you won't have your friends synergy bond and they won't see you immediately changing direction (so basically, you wont use it), and if you are hunting a hunter and you know where he is and you know he suspects where you are (but you also know how to use the environment), you can't wait his tracking (because you know when a hunter need one) for having the 1st shot advantage... so it will be like "who casted camu 1st is doomed" and "who needed more tracks is doomed" when concerning to the outcome (relating to 1st shot advantage and mana saving).

Shooting invisible however... that would be a funny thing to whine about!

sorry, it is late for me too, I don't realy get your words in my head.

The main thing I didn't understand is this:

Because if you are hunting in a group and track invisible you won't have your friends synergy bond and they won't see you immediately changing direction (so basically, you wont use it), and if you are hunting a hunter and you know where he is and you know he suspects where you are (but you also know how to use the environment), you can't wait his tracking (because you know when a hunter need one) for having the 1st shot advantage... so it will be like "who casted camu 1st is doomed" and "who needed more tracks is doomed" when concerning to the outcome (relating to 1st shot advantage and mana saving)

why should you track while under camo when you hunt in a group? It won't be changed that you can track only under camo...you just have the possibility to track under camo...as far as I understood


@Hell_bound:

the regnum comic is independed from the official forum from regnum online...and actually it is funny. Sure, reading your posts makes me smiling too, but not because of your humor...it is your failed trial to bring us a message...you even have to use swearwords to convince us from you beeing right. Did you ever see the youth beeing that rude towards you here in forums?
btw, I just reported your last post, regards

[CumeriTarenes]

Originally Posted by CumeriTarenes

Yep, I already said it in a few other posts, we should rather discuss about how to use our skills instead of how to convince NGD to change some skills for us. Never the less I think hunters got a very bit more power with the new update with the changings in camo. Even with the next update (tracking under camo) they will get a bit more power again
Of course I don't know what NGD is planning to implement to other classes in the future, like dispel and other things, but for the moment I think hunters are quite balanced, actually they were it even more before the latest change of camo. For this I realy think that camo should not be allowed to cast while under attack. When the hunter manages to runs away to cast camo, or he hides behind a stone, a tree or a mob to cast camo I have no problem with, this is good tactics, but when the hunter sees he won't win a fight before the fight started he will use sotw and camo to get away. And he will get away in most cases. Even without camo the hunter has a very big chance to get away because of speed, sotw, dodge, spell elude and low profile. But using sotw and camo makes the chance to get away too big. And all other people are pissed because they cannot catch a hunter and will just whine to nerf them. Cancel camo when beeing under attack is a fair compromise which won't imbalance anything I think. But only my opinion which comes from my limited mind. I am glad some people like you and DM enlighten me from time to time.

This is my last statement to the topic before we have been interrupted.

[DkySven]

My statement about hunters useless spells:
You have in pets a taming skill, revive, 2 passives, skin of the beast and bestial wrath, 6 skills out of 10, in scouting ensnaring, enemy surveillance, track realm enemy(one you don't use is good vs invisible people at short range.) camouflage, wild spirit, stalker surroundings, track ally to find your party back and sentinel 8 out of 10. Now lets look at vanguard... And how much skills does a conjurer uses from summons? What about two handed mastery? Every classes have useless spells, so hunters too. Like demon said: "become lvl 50 first, then you can talk about balance" and "learn to play your damm class".