Current state of the International Proletarian Revolution

JennyfromtheBlock · 02-28-2010, 05:35 PM

All human suffering springs from unbridled desire. Unless one extricates oneself from the clutch of greed, one will not free himself from the fetters of sorrow. - Vellupillai Pirapakaran

Godot · 02-28-2010, 05:53 PM

I see it in a more black and white mindset.
Capitalists are highly materialistic and goal oriented on the personal level.
Where a socialistic person is in it for the team win, they dont worry so much
about the 60 inch lcd tv on the wall or the porsche in the garage ,he is
concerned more with food for his elderly neighbor or the kid down the street
with cancer that cant afford chemo.
Yes greed is a motivator; but at what cost?
I gotta look in the mirror everyday, if the guy looking back hurts others
just to get a little more for himself....I dont want to be that guy.

Vythica · 02-28-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godot

I gotta look in the mirror everyday, if the guy looking back hurts others
just to get a little more for himself....I dont want to be that guy.

Well said Godot.

makarios68 · 02-28-2010, 06:05 PM

Swap Capitalism for what exactly?

Various alternatives have been tried and all have failed.

All that happens is one set of bullies gets replaced with another.

The reason for this is simple: most people don't want power, they don't want to rule or to govern. They just want to raise their families in peace.

But there are a minority of people who crave power. And it is these people that we need to be wary of. There has to be a political system in place which ensures that these power-hungry people don't take excess liberties with the power they are given.

In this respect the capitalist system is the best in human history. Our leaders are accountable to us, we can kick them out of office at voting time, they can be brought to trial for wrongdoings - we can even openly mock them in the media.

Don't get me wrong, capitalism is a long way from being perfect - i'm well aware of it's failings.

I'm just saying that is the best political system to date.

As for Marxism - it has a very useful role as a critique of capitalism. It shines the spotlight on the failings of capitalism.

But if you shout for a revoltion - you need to be careful.

You never know what you'll get!

Vythica · 02-28-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makarios68

Swap Capitalism for what exactly?

Various alternatives have been tried and all have failed.

All that happens is one set of bullies gets replaced with another.

The reason for this is simple: most people don't want power, they don't want to rule or to govern. They just want to raise their families in peace.

But there are a minority of people who crave power. And it is these people that we need to be wary of. There has to be a political system in place which ensures that these power-hungry people don't take excess liberties with the power they are given.

In this respect the capitalist system is the best in human history. Our leaders are accountable to us, we can kick them out of office at voting time, they can be brought to trial for wrongdoings - we can even openly mock them in the media.

Don't get me wrong, capitalism is a long way from being perfect - i'm well aware of it's failings.

I'm just saying that is the best political system to date.

As for Marxism - it has a very useful role as a critique of capitalism. It shines the spotlight on the failings of capitalism.

But if you shout for a revoltion - you need to be careful.

You never know what you'll get!

Capitalism isn't a political system. Neither is Communism. They are economic theories, one based on exploiting the average worker, the other based on his emancipation.

As for leader accountability, in a Communist society there would be nothing stopping the people from holding their leaders accountable, trying them for misdeeds etc. Actually it would probably be much more efficient and leaders would actually be prosecuted instead of walking free like they do today, hiding under the skirts of big business.

Marxism DOES shine a light on the one giant failing of Capitalism. It's based on exploitation. That's what Marxism teaches us.

EDIT: I forgot to point out that I'm eagerly awaiting the Revolution.

makarios68 · 02-28-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

Capitalism isn't a political system. Neither is Communism. They are economic theories, one based on exploiting the average worker, the other based on his emancipation.

I haven't really got the time to dabble with semantics. Suffice it to say that political theory and political practice are very closely inter-linked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

As for leader accountability, in a Communist society there would be nothing stopping the people from holding their leaders accountable

The terms 'communist society' and 'leaders' are not compatible. A communist society is supposed to have no leader/s. Which is why i pointed out that the vast majority of people do not want to rule or govern. This task will always fall upon those who hunger for it - in effect, the politicians. I don't believe it is possible for a communist society to exist in the utopian image that some people have. This is because the vast majority of people are not political enough to be interested in running their society. And so we pass the burden to others who are willing to do the task.

This is why we need a political system that reigns in the worst excesses of the power-hungry. In a capitalist system we might get a retired actor or a bumbling fool as leader, but at least it isn't Stalin or a Chairman Mau. These tyrants were allowed their excesses under a different kind of system.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

Actually it would probably be much more efficient and leaders would actually be prosecuted instead of walking free like they do today, hiding under the skirts of big business.

I agree completely here. As i said, i am aware of the failings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

Marxism DOES shine a light on the one giant failing of Capitalism. It's based on exploitation. That's what Marxism teaches us.

Yes it is. But so were the so-called communist examples we have in our history. These were based on exploitation too - they only difference is, they didn't tell us at the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

EDIT: I forgot to point out that I'm eagerly awaiting the Revolution.

Good luck with that

Vythica · 02-28-2010, 08:16 PM

For one who doesn't dabble in semantics, you sure do dabble in semantics. That being said there is nothing in Communism that runs counter to having leaders. The idea put forth by Lenin was that we would have elected councils that were completely transparent and accountable wholly to the workers.

makarios68 · 02-28-2010, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vythica

The idea put forth by Lenin was that we would have elected councils that were completely transparent and accountable wholly to the workers.

Nice idea. Not so easy in practice.

Which is why it has never happened.

Vythica · 02-28-2010, 08:37 PM

But that's not to say it can't or won't. I like to think that human beings learn from our mistakes and take precautions against making them again.

Cuchulainn · 03-01-2010, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makarios68

... Which is why i pointed out that the vast majority of people do not want to rule or govern. This task will always fall upon those who hunger for it - in effect, the politicians. I don't believe it is possible for a communist society to exist in the utopian image that some people have. This is because the vast majority of people are not political enough to be interested in running their society. And so we pass the burden to others who are willing to do the task.
...

I agree that currently most people dont want to rule or govern, the majority is political rather disinterested. But people would be more political interested if it would be easier for them to take part on political decisions, thats usually not so easy in representative democracies compared to direct democracies.

Switzerland is a example were the people are much more political interested than in most representative democracies, because they can take part on important decisions. They can vote for or against most laws they make in their pretty small country.

@topic
I also like the idea of communism, but currently the humans are probably not ready yet for it. More economical and financial crises have to come and will come. Capitalism can work as long as there is a economic growth.

02-28-2010, 05:35 PM	#1
JennyfromtheBlock Apprentice Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 64	All human suffering springs from unbridled desire. Unless one extricates oneself from the clutch of greed, one will not free himself from the fetters of sorrow. - Vellupillai Pirapakaran __________________ Haven\|Ignis\|Apocalypse Jenny from the Block \| Naughty Nymph \| Naughty Vixen \| Camilla \| Atomic Betty \| Dixie Queen It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. - REM

02-28-2010, 05:53 PM	#2
Godot Apprentice Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 91	I see it in a more black and white mindset. Capitalists are highly materialistic and goal oriented on the personal level. Where a socialistic person is in it for the team win, they dont worry so much about the 60 inch lcd tv on the wall or the porsche in the garage ,he is concerned more with food for his elderly neighbor or the kid down the street with cancer that cant afford chemo. Yes greed is a motivator; but at what cost? I gotta look in the mirror everyday, if the guy looking back hurts others just to get a little more for himself....I dont want to be that guy. __________________ There are 4 things you can never recover: The stone..after the throw. The word..after it's said. The occasion..after it's missed. The time..after it's gone.

02-28-2010, 08:16 PM	#7
Vythica Pledge Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: In the closet. Posts: 40	For one who doesn't dabble in semantics, you sure do dabble in semantics. That being said there is nothing in Communism that runs counter to having leaders. The idea put forth by Lenin was that we would have elected councils that were completely transparent and accountable wholly to the workers. __________________ Resurrected.

02-28-2010, 08:37 PM	#9
Vythica Pledge Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: In the closet. Posts: 40	But that's not to say it can't or won't. I like to think that human beings learn from our mistakes and take precautions against making them again. __________________ Resurrected.

02-28-2010, 06:05 PM	#4
makarios68 Count Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: England Posts: 1,300	Swap Capitalism for what exactly? Various alternatives have been tried and all have failed. All that happens is one set of bullies gets replaced with another. The reason for this is simple: most people don't want power, they don't want to rule or to govern. They just want to raise their families in peace. But there are a minority of people who crave power. And it is these people that we need to be wary of. There has to be a political system in place which ensures that these power-hungry people don't take excess liberties with the power they are given. In this respect the capitalist system is the best in human history. Our leaders are accountable to us, we can kick them out of office at voting time, they can be brought to trial for wrongdoings - we can even openly mock them in the media. Don't get me wrong, capitalism is a long way from being perfect - i'm well aware of it's failings. I'm just saying that is the best political system to date. As for Marxism - it has a very useful role as a critique of capitalism. It shines the spotlight on the failings of capitalism. But if you shout for a revoltion - you need to be careful. You never know what you'll get!