Current state of the International Proletarian Revolution

[Godot]

Originally Posted by makarios68

Swap Capitalism for what exactly?

Various alternatives have been tried and all have failed.

well.... not exactly, China seems to be thriving under a system not
capitalistic.

Originally Posted by makarios68

In this respect the capitalist system is the best in human history. Our leaders are accountable to us, we can kick them out of office at voting time, they can be brought to trial for wrongdoings - we can even openly mock them in the media.

you can kick your leaders , you cant kick a board of directors, or stockholders
or a CEO that is raping you and your neighbors and your coutrymen everyday of every week year in year out.... he doesnt care who's in political power as
long as the wheels keep turning and his bonus clause isnt infringed upon.

Originally Posted by makarios68

I'm just saying that is the best political system to date.

heresay; facts not in evidence.

But if you shout for a revoltion - you need to be careful.

You never know what you'll get!

I think Che Guevara knew exactly what he'd get and the price he'd pay for it.
Then he went ahead and did it anyway.
-------------------------

@ Torg
I'd like to ask you to please point out who was harsh with you and how you were harmed.
If your opinion was indeed oppressed then I'll be the first in line to come to your defense.

Failing that I'd say you are taking a discussion on world politics a bit too personally and
remind that no one is forced to participate in the thread.

[DkySven]

Che Geuvara is known to have shot people just because they were gay, I wouldn't use him as a bright example.

Also, why anyone would point to China as a happy country is beyond me. I can't think of any country more oppressing its citizens, except for maybe North Korea.

[Godot]

I never said China was "happy" , I said thriving.

about Che shooting people... I hadnt heard that , if you could please
provide attribution ?

[terekon]

Well torg,

If you think that we are in here to put others down, and tell everyone they arent doing enough then you are mistaken about the point of this thread.

The discussion on the threads being closed has not been mentioned and i dont know how NGD could better be a communist entity unless when someone bought xim it got evenly distributed amongst the realm. (which im not suggesting) If this conversation has taken place many times before, good. Politics should be discussed frequently and in many different places(video game forums included), its the only way things will change.

Now back to the topic at hand. It is true that revolutions can get messy. Che later in the revolution began lining up civilians that were working against his cause and shooting them. "War is hell" it alters all perceptions you have on everything. I am not justifying what he did, but you have to look at his state, and the state of affairs he was operating under. Never heard about him specifically killing gays. But as i have said before worse things have been done in the name of capitalism. Look at vietnam, there are still children being born with birth defects because of what we did. The same has already started in Iraq.

[Henri_Freundlich]

Originally Posted by terekon

Look at vietnam, there are still children being born with birth defects because of what we did. The same has already started in Iraq.

So, this thread isn't about Communism and Capitalism and rather, an in-depth discussion about how corporations and governments conduct subtle experiments on society while semi-neglecting the people adversely affected by them. Interesting.

The T-245 compound vegetation spray was used in various parts of the world, for vegetation control (apart from the Vietnam War). Until the USA outlawed it shortly after the massive illness-causing side-effects were revealed to the public.

Iraq - entirely Bush's fault IMHO. Hussein *was* a benevolent dictator. The Bush Government did not have an effective exit strategy in-place, with countless deaths etc *after* the war ended.

Originally Posted by Godot

h of raping you, your friends, neighbors and countrymen.

Rape? Overcharges, yes, but they don't physically go to your house and sexually assault you.

Better to keep facts as-is, rather than distorting them with one's own interests and views.

Originally Posted by Godot

nice qote , I'd say it proves that the people DO in fact have motivation to
inovate and excel.

Yes, by competing with capitalism-led companies.

And by the way, I'm Center-Left, not radical-Left.

[terekon]

Originally Posted by Henri_Freundlich

The T-245 compound vegetation spray was used in various parts of the world, for vegetation control (apart from the Vietnam War). Until the USA outlawed it shortly after the massive illness-causing side-effects were revealed to the public.

you are right they did outlaw Agent orange after the effects on soldiers were seen in the hundreds of thousands. Napalm was also used and outlawed. However since they made the use of Napalm illegal, they had to find something else to take its place, and that is white phosphorus. Its alleged use is to destroy weapon caches or materials that could be helpful in aiding the enemy. That is until we start dropping it into heavily populated civilian neighborhoods like we did in fallujah.

its not just the fault of George Bush, its the fault of everyone who carried out his orders even if they were grossly against international law. Dont think because something is outlawed they wont use something just as bad.

[Vythica]

Originally Posted by DkySven

Che Geuvara is known to have shot people just because they were gay, I wouldn't use him as a bright example.

Things that are socially acceptable now weren't in the 1950s. Like being gay. Saying Thomas Jefferson wasn't a great president because he owned slaves. Things we find appalling today maybe weren't so taboo 50, 100, or 500 years ago. Che was a great example of the Grassroots nature of the Revolution and how the common man/woman could rise up against their oppressors.

Originally Posted by DkySven

Also, why anyone would point to China as a happy country is beyond me. I can't think of any country more oppressing its citizens, except for maybe North Korea.

I can think of about 25 others off the top of my head more oppressive than TPRC.
While not the best for an example, certainly not the most oppressive regime on the planet.

[Henri_Freundlich]

Originally Posted by Godot

well.... not exactly, China seems to be thriving under a system not
capitalistic.

The Government (and their cronies) thrive, leaving everyone else to live in poverty. Not to mention China gradually shifting towards Capitalism.

The number of Chinese citizens filing patents have grown 557% - between 1994 and 2005!

Originally Posted by Godot

you can kick your leaders , you cant kick a board of directors, or stockholders
or a CEO that is raping you and your neighbors and your coutrymen everyday of every week year in year out.... he doesnt care who's in political power as
long as the wheels keep turning and his bonus clause isnt infringed upon.

CEOs' and board members *do* get dismissed, if the public and/or investors are dissatisfied of their performance.

But the reality of the collective -- as we know from Wikipedia -- is that in fact, there are always a few cadres who really run things. So all this system does is remove *real* responsibility mandated in a corporate hierarchy with titles and specific job descriptions, and puts that management function into the hands of crypto-bosses and shifting figures in charge of ad-hoc groups with changing loyalties.

Uravnilovka -- levelling down, dumbing down, making everyone artificially equal in the name of egalitarianism. This word is best summed up by the anecdote about the difference between a Soviet and American. The Soviet who didn't have a cow would see that his neighbour had a cow, and ask the state to take it away from the neighbour, and have the two share it on a collective farm; the American would see that his neighbour had a cow, and work hard and strive to emulate him and earn a cow himself. Lindens believe they play no favourites, that everyone is equal, but precisely because they maintain that fiction, they break it, by creating an advance guard -- themselves -- with their selective advisors

-- Registered Democrat Prokofy Neva: The Leninism of Linden

[Godot]

Originally Posted by Henri_Freundlich

The Government (and their cronies) thrive, leaving everyone else to live in poverty. Not to mention China gradually shifting towards Capitalism.

hmm... last time I was in Hong Kong it seemed to have taken a radical turn
toward socialism. The poorer sections did however seem in better repair than
when it was still under colonial control.

The number of Chinese citizens filing patents have grown 557% - between 1994 and 2005!

nice qote , I'd say it proves that the people DO in fact have motivation to
inovate and excel.

Originally Posted by Henri_Freundlich

CEOs' and board members *do* get dismissed, if the public and/or investors are dissatisfied of their performance.

Fair statement , I dont think you carried it far enough though.
Lets restate it like this

CEOs' and board members *do* get dismissed, if the public and/or investors are dissatisfied of their performance of raping you, your friends, neighbors and countrymen.

[makarios68]

Originally Posted by Godot

well.... not exactly, China seems to be thriving under a system not
capitalistic.

As DKY said, this is not a good example to hold up as a torch light for communism. China is a curious mix of the worst excesses of capitalism, but under a communist banner.

With hundreds of millions living under extreme poverty and subject to to human rights abuses, the majority of that society are not exactly thriving.

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Lol, in the time it took me to submit my last post, half a dozen or more replies were made.

I wish i had time to comment on more of them - fascinating topic by the OP.

Hope this thread doesn't turn sour - please don't let that happen.